Episode 2 - Stereotypes, Anxiety, and Expectations (Short Version)

Check out the next episode of our youth-led Wild Way Podcast series! Program participants Caroline Welfare and Avery Godfrey talk stereotypes, anxiety, and expectations. What is it that actually makes us want to stereotype someone? How do stereotypes (even "positive stereotypes") hurt us? And what can we do to change them?

This is a shortened version of the episode - you can also check out the longer version on our home page.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Wild Way Podcast, where we explore the peaks and valleys of the modern youth experience. I'm your host, Alex Eipel, the executive director of the Wild Way, and now very amateur podcaster. The Wild Way is a nonprofit with the mention of providing outdoor experiences to girls to build their confidence, resilience, and curiosity. We are an outdoor recreation program, but we are first and foremost a confidence program. Our true goal is to make girls feel good about themselves, feel like they have agency and power, and that they can accomplish their goals. So this podcast will be a platform where we talk about all of the trials and tribulations of being pre teen and teenage girls. And we can guarantee you that this youth obstacle course looks very different for the current generation than it did for us. These discussions are going to be led by the youth in our program, so we have the opportunity to see the world through their eyes.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

My name is Alex Seipel, and I'm your host. And if you are watching this podcast, then you are probably already familiar with The Wild Way. We are a nonprofit organization with the mission of providing outdoor expedition-based experiences to girls to build their confidence, resilience, and curiosity. And this past year, our program has grown. We've been around since 2021, but in 2025, we serve 297 girls over 48 days of events, and our programming is free for families in need, and we covered over$20,000 in costs so that any family can participate in our outdoor confidence building activities. So today on our show, we have two of our participants on our interview panel here. We have Caroline Welfare and Avery Godfrey. These are two of our Wild Way OG girls. They've been with the program since it really started, I believe in 2021, 2022. We have done so many things together. We've climbed together, we've caved together. So fun fact about Caroline is that she is one of our wild wayfarers now, which means that she has aged out of the program. She's 15, and now she designs and leads her own wild way excursions. Last year she took a group of girls to Bottom Creek Gorge, and we do like a naturalist hike together, which is super cool. Avery is not 15 yet, right? How old are you? 13. You're 13, but she is a very, very busy young lady, and I have a lot of respect for her. Um, she's a great climber, and she also, fun fact, I just found out today that she does she's a trapeze artist, which is uh don't be so humble. Not many people can say they do trapeze.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Not an artist.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Well, it's art is what you what you want it to be, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Abstract.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Awesome. All right, so today our theme, which selected by these ladies, we're talking about stereotypes, anxiety, and expectations. So let's get started. Um, in your opinion, guys, why do we stereotype? What drives people to do those things?

SPEAKER_04 2:50

I think people stereotype others or at least start like looking, like acting on the stereotypes when they need to make a really, really quick decision. Like, for example, if you need help somewhere, you're probably gonna look for someone who's in a uniform. Like, like that's how you know that they're supposed to be in that area, so they're who you can go to for help. Like, for example, I think of police officers or national park rangers, like those people who are in uniform, typically you would go for for help, if that makes sense. Whereas someone who maybe isn't in uniform or maybe doesn't look as I don't want to say put together, but it's like like maybe you'd go to the person in the uniform first.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. I mean, so well, what do you think, Avery? Leave me your opinion as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Like, I really agree with her, and I think it's a lot about just like making a quick judgment call on people without having to like dissect their character or like what what they do. Like you don't have to know them, you just have to look at them, and that's how they are.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Like, so that's an interesting point to bring up because basically we all stereotype as humans, right? And it sounds like stereotypes, I mean, the main thing is doing is is is it it's about expectations.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

And of course, your expectations are formed through your worldview, your experiences. So I guess in some ways, stereotypes they have a useful place, right? They're not necessarily coming always from a bad place, but they can get very out of hand very quickly, and they can be very misinformed based on your your experiences in the past.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Right. The big thing is that I think that they're incomplete and that's why they're harmful. Because, like, because like, yes, maybe the kid who has an I hate math t-shirt doesn't like math. But that doesn't mean they're bad at math, just that they maybe they don't like math or something like something like that. It's like it's like st stereotypes are not the full story of a person, but they like usually and usually there are only the they're the only aspect of that person that we perceive.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah. That's such a good point about it being incomplete. Yeah. And sometimes it's totally inaccurate. Yeah. Yeah. I know for me, sometimes stereotypes, or I mean, I think for anyone, you're more likely to switch to thinking in stereotypes under stressful situations when maybe you do have to make a quick decision or or you're just scared. So I think a lot of stereotypes, especially negative stereotypes, because we can talk about this, like there's positive stereotypes, well, quote positive stereotypes and negative stereotypes. Um, but a lot of these stereotypes are are really rooted in fear and anxiety and self-protection. Oh, this person, gosh, it first glance, like just based off the way they're dressed, they don't look like my kind of people. So I'm not gonna ask them for help. Let's talk about negative stereotypes first. And we all know, like, we're talking about this stuff that I mean, it's uncomfortable to talk about stereotypes because we all know it's it's bad to stereotype people based on, you know, their race, their religion, their ethnicity, um, all of the all of those things, their gender, um, their sex. Where do you though think these where uh your generation, where are a lot of your stereotypes coming from? The stereotypes you see?

SPEAKER_03 6:13

I think a lot of the stereotypes that I see, like personally, like from like friends, family, like anywhere, is people just again like making like just to look at a quick judgment call, or sometimes like I've noticed that like deeply insecure. So they like project aspects of themselves that they aren't particularly comfortable with towards other people to like make them like look bad, I think. If that makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

And then I absolutely agree what you said, um, but adding on to that, I think it comes a lot from like social media and especially like true crime podcasts. Like don't get me wrong, they're like fantastic entertainment sometimes. Sometimes I get depressed after listening to them, but that's a whole nother thing. Um, and it's like you you'll hear like, oh, it's always the boyfriend, it's always the husband, whenever whenever you know a person dies or or something. And like then that kind of stereotype, even if even if you're like, oh, this person I know would never do such a thing, it kind of sticks in your brain a little bit. And then if you see it in other forms of media, like um, I can't think of a different example off the top of my head. Like movies, film, TV, like whatever. Or or like a specific stereotype. Like if you see that represented, that stereotype specifically represented in almost everything, then it then eventually it just gets stuck enough in your mind that you're not thinking about where it came from anymore. It just feels true. Like it's and maybe it is true that if someone unfortunately dies, the first person they police will investigate if it's suspicious is likely their immediate partner.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:07

Um, or the person they were closest to. Um like maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean we should immediately be suspicious of every single little thing that their partner does. Because that's not like that, it's not an it's not an and statement.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yeah, and I think like also like a like basically every television show movie I can think of stereotypes at least like some character in some way, and then like it just sticks because it's all the time. So then you like bring that stereotype upon other people that are like similar to them. So then it just keeps repeating itself.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Yeah, the tropes. It's like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

It's the East End comedy, especially.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Yeah, the dumb blonde trope, for example.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

It's literally everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

And like go ahead. Oh, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Oh, well, like just everything. Because like a lot of stereotypes are definitely about like countries and stuff, because like personally, like as an American, like when I'm traveling, because I I like travel a lot, I would say sometimes I feel like a dumb American, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

Yeah, or an annoying tourist.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Yeah, I definitely because I have like a camera and I'm taking a photo. But I know that's not true because everybody likes to take photos everywhere, but other people definitely think that.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah, and I think Americans have long had that stereotype associated with them, but I would say now in the era of social media and 24-7 news, stereotypes are sticking more than ever. And I do think there's something to these echo chambers that are created through social media that just reinforce these sort of false, yeah, these false ideas of of what to expect from somebody before you've even spoken to them. Yeah. So talking about stereotypes, how are you guys stereotyped? Because there are so many different ways you can be stereotyped. I think it's important to to point out there are negative stereotypes, right? Like the dumb blonde. Oh, there's they're blonde in their trailer, they must be dumb. Then there can also be positive stereotypes that have detrimental effects on you. Like, oh um Caroline, she's so responsible. I bet she makes straight A's. You make straight A's, don't you? Is this a stereotype of and maybe you do, but maybe you don't. Um but there's a burden that comes with positive stereotypes as well.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

I mean, part of how I've noticed myself being stereotyped is that I'm perceived as dependable. Like I've noticed in some of my classes, people be like, what's the answer? Like, what do you get? And part of the time I'm like, oh, I got this. And part of the time I'm like, I do not know. And then they're like almost surprised when I say I actually don't know the answer to this question. I haven't gotten there yet, or something. And then so and part of myself is like I feel a pressure to be dependable be like through like because because like I've set the bar for myself, if that makes sense, for being depend, and then I and then when I and even because it's a good stereotype, you know, like oh she's so dependable. But then I feel when I can't reach that stereotype, like, or like the biggest blank wash circle of that stereotype. I feel like I'm failing.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

So like even if it's a good stereotype, it still puts a lot of pressure on me to perform at that level. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, it plays into again the stereotype you kind of brought up, like, oh, if I need help, I'm gonna go to a woman because women are so helpful, yeah. Right. And that could result later on in that feeling of like burnout and the constant need to be perfect. What what do you think, Avery?

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Like, uh yeah, definitely like positive stereotypes, but then they go like negative because the bar's so high. But also, like sometimes they're really just like generic stereotypes. And that also like leads to like basically what people think about you. Because like, oh, she reads a lot, she must be really smart. I'm like, I read a lot, but I wouldn't say I'm particularly like smart, or like, oh, she was giving me the answer this one time. She's always been giving me the answers, and she's always gonna be right. I'm not always gonna be right.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah. Talking about negative stereotypes specifically, um, there's this term that I read recently, and I think it really sums up like the way stereotypes are just rampant on the internet. It's like outrage industrial complex, right? And how much money is made through basically like getting people riled up through headlines, right, about different groups of people. It's almost like we're at a stage where like contempt is like the new currency, right? This is how people get you to click on like rage-bate articles, right? As they're like putting out stuff about, oh, this one group did this, and and I just feel like this generation is being exposed to a lot of anger online that's driven by stereotypes. Do you guys experience that?

SPEAKER_03 13:06

I yeah, I've seen a lot of like really like negative, harsh things about like a certain minority or like majority of people that are like it's like a blanket term. Like it's just this person is in that group, so it it's just that, like it's negative, and nobody can be different because it's just that. And like I think honestly, just like seeing like even like adults, like people you look up to and like celebrities, like execute those stereotypes and like use it in like a show, maybe they're in, or like a song, and it just drives everybody to do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

Yeah, and then like beyond those stereotypes, it's like it'll be and it'll be about like blanket groups, right? But then if you're in maybe two different groups that are being because every group gets stereotyped, yeah, um then the person doing the stereotype will ignore the fact that maybe you're also in the group that they're stereotyping you below. If that's because cause everyone who's doing a stereotype will have like a group that they stereotype to be higher and a group that they stereotype to be lower. And so if you're in groups that are on different levels, they'll they'll just pick a level that you're lower in and only. Oh, and like sing. So it's I never thought about that. So it's like you can be stereotyped, but you can also be lower on the on the scale of stereotypes. And like that's really annoying, especially when you're talking to a person who's stereotyping you in one of the groups you're in, but you're also together in a different group that's being stereotyped. And you've talked about, you know, oh, I like we hate, we don't, we don't like being stereotyped like this, and then they still be like, and then they still go and stereotype the other people that maybe are part of the reason why that group is, but it's very competitive.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, no, it is tribalism, is what you're describing, basically.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

But it's like can I not like be c because you know how stereotypes are incomplete, but it's like if I'm in two different groups that are being stereotyped, and then someone from one of those groups is stereo stereotyped a different group, like that that's almost more hurtful than being stereotyped by someone who doesn't know you.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Yeah. And so back off of that, it's like if you're in this certain like group, because it's like really tribal sometimes, yeah, and like it's like in a group of groups, and then like you just try and put another group down because it's not your group, so they're not as good as you. So you're just gonna put them like you're gonna put down this other group, and you just do it to everybody, and it just makes everyone feel like worse. Yeah. It like increases the stereotype.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah, I think stereotyping in is essence, you're objectifying somebody, right? You're erasing everything about that person that makes them a human being, right? And you're just boiling them down to like this one common denominator that essentially you you want to do that because it makes them more predictable to you, or you think it makes them more predictable to you. So that makes you safer, right? If you just make this assumption, like, okay, um I gotta hate going back to the blonde cheerleader stereotype because it's like just the oldest stereotype, this dumbest stereotype of all time. But you know, you go into this situation and maybe you're thinking, well, this person's probably gonna be kind of a bully because they're like this like super cool blonde cheerleader, dumb, whatever, going into that expedite like that that situation, expecting a certain outcome to protect yourself. And you could be completely wrong about this. This person has so many things, a rich life full of all these different dynamics that you can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Yeah. So on this note, how are you, how do you guys feel like you're stereotyped? Because there can be, again, there's negative stereotypes, but there's also positive stereotypes, what we call positive, um, even though they can have detrimental effects.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

Well, for me, one of the ways that I've noticed being stereotyped is being very dependable. Like, you know, how we talked about earlier, like, oh, you would go to a woman for help, but because they're always so prepared. Um, but in a similar way, it's like I've noticed some of my classmates that I'm friends with, you know, like coming to me, being like, hey, what'd you get for the answer to this question? And like usually maybe I do have the answer that they're looking for, but then sometimes I'm like, I haven't gone there yet, or I don't know. And it's and it's like, and it's like I'm so I think it's grateful, is my word. Like, oh, I'm so glad that they feel like they can come and ask me for help, but then it also feels like they're setting my internal bar of expectations higher, and then when I can't meet those high end expectations, I feel like a failure. And it's just like so, even good stereotypes like that, it's like it puts so much pressure on me that it's hard to enjoy that I'm known for being good at something.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Yeah. Like it ties into perfectionism.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

Yeah, it's pressure to perform now.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Yeah, like I 100% agree. Like, if I maybe in volleyball, like I'll do good for like this one tournament or I'll I'll play pretty well. And then like the next practice or game or tournament I have and I'm not playing my best, they're gonna be like, what's going on with her? Like, she's just not doing as good as she usually is. She's usually good. She's like, she usually get that over the net. She usually play that to the setter or something, but like I can't I just can't do it. So then it makes me feel like worse. And then I feel like I'm just not like maybe I like fell out of volleyball. Like maybe it's not my thing. I like maybe suddenly I just got really bad and I'm never gonna get good again.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

And then like sometimes it's just like with the pressure to perform, it takes the fun out of it. Like I used to enjoy doing this activity a whole whole lot, but now that people are expecting me to suddenly be good at it, every time I do it, like that's not fun for me anymore. And it's it's just like it was supposed it was and it's like I'm doing a sport because you know, exercise and it's gonna be fun. But then if suddenly the only reason but then suddenly if it's like, oh these people are like, hey, like, why aren't you climbing your best and I'm over here having fun? It's like that takes the fun out of it for me. It's not fun.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah. So so what do you guys think in terms of well, how do we help these stereotypes? How do we stop stereotyping people?

SPEAKER_03 19:59

I think like I think most like stereotypes are just foreign because like you don't want to like get to know a person, like you just want to like put that over like you don't want to put in the effort to like know them. So you just give them the stereotype that like blankets them, so they don't really have a personality. But I think getting to know people and like understanding that they're not like what they seem they are.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Like what they seem to be is the most important thing to stop stereotypes.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Yeah, I agree with what Avery just said, but something else that I think is super duper important is not seeing people as a group. So it's like even if they are technically in a group, you see them as the individual, not the group. So it's like it's not like so, even if you know they're a theater kid, you know, you don't immediately assume that oh, they already know other lines or they're they're already doing their career. But it's like it's like if you when you stop seeing people as part of a group, even if they are part of a group, I think it helps you see them more as an individual. Because what we what I've noticed people stereotyping more and more is just groups, and people can technically fall into that group, but if you see them as their own person, then it's then the stereotypes don't happen.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

How do you guys deal with people who have different expectations for you? Or expectations that don't align with with your values?

SPEAKER_03 21:32

I think for me, like with if it's my family or like sometimes like a really close friend, I'll like sometimes I'll communicate with that with them. Like if my parent or my parents they want me to like get like an A plus on this test that I really do not understand, even though I've tried, like I just need to communicate with that with them and say that like I'm probably not gonna get a good grade on this. I tried really hard, it just does not make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Like with people that you aren't that close with that that you feel like you can't really communicate with. Maybe just like show them through your actions that you're not like you're not always what they think you are. And you're not always you're not always gonna be perfect. Nobody ever is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

Yeah. For me, um, a lot of the ways that I manage stereotypes, I d like I absolutely do the communication thing with my close family, but with like people who aren't my close family, like extended family, I became really, really good at controlling where the conversation was going. So for example, if someone has an expectation that I go to a certain college, I don't discuss college stuff with them. I talk about the class that I'm in right now that I'm really interested in, or um how what classes I want to take next year. And I just don't talk about my college search with that person, or I'm careful about saying I'm still researching all my options. I don't have a specific college nailed down yet. So, and then if that person decides to continue asking, well, this place was really good, you should totally go to this place. I just I just like bluntly switch the conversation to some to something else.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah, guys, this is very interesting. We went all over the place. We started with stereotypes, then we went into, well, I mean, that's good. We went into expectations and we went into a lot of the the generational pressure that you guys feel. I mean, unfortunately, in the age of like social media and 24-7 news, people getting boiled down to like the very worst thing they've ever done. And I really never thought about what you mentioned feeling like you have to be your most beige vanilla self in order to be accepted.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

But on the flip side of that, like we said, your generation is very intentional about trying to combat these stereotypes and trying to make people feel welcome and accepted.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

I've seen that with you guys, and I'm very impressed by that.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

And I've noticed people placing very precise importance on making sure everyone feels welcome. It's almost like for me at least, we've seen the mistakes or we've seen what the generations of the past have done, and we've decided, well, we're not gonna make those same mistakes. We're gonna make different ones, and that's okay. But we're gonna be the we're like as a generation, it's like we're gonna make sure that everyone feels loved and cared for because everyone deserves that because they're human.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah, and seeing people as the individual is the ultimate way to combat these stereotypes, right? Instead of being mentally lazy and making, you know, jumping right to the conclusion, seeing somebody as the the headline instead of the whole article, right? We want to get to know people on a deeper individual level. Um that was great, guys. Cool.

unknown 24:55

Yay.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Well, in conclusion, um we have a trail tip section as part of our Wild Way podcast, as one of our traditions. So this is just advice to take with you on your outdoor adventures, things to keep in mind. And would you guys both like to share a quick trail tip with us?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Do you want to go first? You can go first. Okay, I'll go first. Um, my tip that I'm gonna share is something that my family has been really careful about, is that you don't wanna over prepare. Like that's not the right word, but it's like if it's cold in the morning, even so you you can bring a jacket, but once you start hiking, you're gonna get hot. And then that jacket, if it's like a big winter coat, you're gonna overheat. And then if you have to take all that off, and then you're just in a t-shirt and shorts, you're gonna be too cold. So layers are really important. Be like a cake, have layers.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Be like a cake, have layers. I think yeah, having layers make sure it's breathable fabric, like wool, right? Because wool keeps you warm even if it gets slightly slightly damp. But really, if it's cold outside and you start to sweat, and then you take your layers off, now you're cold and you're wet because you have sweating. So you finding that balance.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

Yes, and then if and then if you and then heat exhaustion is a whole nother ball game. And it's almost a bigger issue in winter if you super, you know, bundled up and then you get too hot, and then you are dehydrated, and then you lose consciousness and then you die. Woo!

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah, we don't want to we want to avoid it. Don't do that, guys.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

So we're gonna have layers like a cake. For me, it's like it's basic. You've all heard this one, but like trying not to litter and picking up after other people because it's horrible for the environment. And like, especially today, like what you were talking about, like we have to fix climate change because we're that generation. I think what we can do as the individual is just stop littering. And again, like you might think that like throwing out like banana peels, orange peels, and apple cores on to the side of the road and like the Medians is good, and it's like good for the environment because it's just gonna decompose and it's gonna like be good for the soil. It's not always that way because an animal, animals love to eat those cores and those peels, especially deer. And that's and then they're gonna come onto the road, the side of the road, and they're gonna maybe get hit by cars, and again, horrible for the environment because you're wiping out the species. All right, guys.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

So I just want to give a shout out here at the end. Um, we are very fortunate to be one of Roanoke Outside Foundation's project outside grantees. Um, they gave us some money to support our new adventure coordinator position. We have a part-time person coming on board soon. So that's an exciting update for the Wild Way. And I also want to give a shout-out to Runabout Sports. Runabout Sports very kindly um donated a portion of their proceeds to the Wild Way from late February through early March. So if you shopped at Runabout during that time, thank you very much for helping us out. Uh, we love Runabout, it's another local women-owned business. So to wrap it up, guys, I know I just have you guys share trail chips, but real quick, in one sentence, can you guys tell me your favorite thing you've done at the Wild Way? I know it's kind of hard because you guys have done a lot.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

There's a lot of pressure. Um we I think my favorite thing to do was the fly fishing trip that we did, summer of 2005. I was a wayfarer for that trip, but I still had a lot of fun. And it got it like made me enjoy fishing, whereas before it was like something that, you know, my dad and my my brother would do, but I did not have the intention span for that activity. So I never enjoyed it as much as my brother or my dad.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

I think for me, like just caving in general, I like coming out of the cave like really dirty and like kind of care that we has been exhausted and kind of delirious because even in the dark, it's pretty quiet in a cave. So like you're outside and you're really dirty and it there's sunlight and everyone's like talking, and it's just like it's kind of like a fever dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

There's a surreal. Oh, that's cool. Well, thanks guys for being part of the wild way and making the wild way as amazing as it is.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Thank you for bringing the wild way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Well, this is the Wild Way podcast. Thank you guys for listening. You can follow us on Instagram at the Wild Way Roanoke. You can share this podcast with others, and you can learn more about our programs at www.thewildway.org. Thank you.